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Codex Dark Angels 27 wrote:Scouts: Note that no model may make a Turbo Boost move whilst using the Scouts Special Rule

This refers to the 4th ed. rules, where Turbo Boost moves were universally disallowed during a Scout move. 5th Edition now allows Turbo Boosts during a Scout move.

Codex Dark Angels 27 wrote:Much like Combat Squads, the squadron's Attack Bike and Land Speeder are purchased together with the squadron and then deployed at the same time as the squadron's bikes, but from then on they always operate as completely independent scoring units of one model.

As the definition of scoring units has changed in 5th ed. this rule is also outdated.

Codex overrules BGB.

Eric

Ah, but GW has already errata'd out the ability for Combat Squads of Assault Marines, Devastator Squads, Scout Squads, etc to all be independent scoring units. So they obviously are removing some of the outdated rules, yet they have not addressed this page yet.

Personally, I'm fine with either decision, though I would prefer to have them both removed rather than both enforced.

Bikes, no turboboost. Codex>rulebook. Nuff said.

Landspeeders. Look at it this way. Sternguard are an Elite unit that can be made scoring thanks to a special rule in their codex, right? Anyone gonna argue about them being scoring even tho they're an Elite and not a Troop (as the main rulebook requires)? Didn't think so. In other words, the rulebook list of scoring units is a baseline that can be modified by the codex. Sooooo those landspeeders are scoring due to a special rule in their codex.

The reason this thread exists is that the current INAT 2.0 FAQ said bikes still can't Turbo Boost during their Scout move, but removed the ability for Attack Bikes and Land Speeders as part of RAS to be scoring.

I felt that was a giant middle finger to DA players, so I have created this thread for people to weigh opinions on it.

Again, I personally am absolutely fine with either keeping or removing both. I am NOT ok with keeping a disadvantage and taking away an advantage, as the INAT FAQ currently rules.

And that is why Adepticon and INAT are crap.

DA aren't SM. DA Ravenwing are Scoring. It says so right there in the Codex.

Christ. Are the DA overpowered with Scoring Ravenwing?

No.

Then throw the DA a bone and keep them scoring per RAW.

Trekari, I am with you on this one brother. I am a long time DA player.

I personally would not mind the ruling either way...As long as it is consistent.

That being: Either Rule they are both outdated and should be played with the new 5th ed standard.

OR

Rule that Codex>Rulebook and keep it the way the Codex reads

Not Screw DA on both.

Codex > Rulebook. If it's good enough to limit Guard squads to only using their own dedicated transport, it's good enough to give Dark Angels the only scoring vehicle in the game.

Every army has things in it that are unique advantages for that army. This is one of those things for Dark Angels.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And that is why Adepticon and INAT are crap.

Which is why the FAQ is made public so others can catch things that may have been missed, or better argued by others and can therefore be re addressed in either circumstance.

If you had a bad experiance at Adepticon then it being "crap" is your personal and fair opinion. However, if you have never been, then I would refrian from such negative comments. Especially when so many people put in a lot of work and time into its being setup and then run sucesfully.

Just one clarification, the INAT FAQ only removes the Landspeeder as a scoring unit, not the attack bike.

Personally, I think that my scout bikes should be able to turboboost in their scout move but that Landspeeders should not be scoring. This seems most consistent to me.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

There are no more "scoring" units, so the discussion about whether or not to keep them as "scoring" is moot.
The discusion should be about their ability to CLAIM... which the codex does NOT give them... Which means that they cannot claim.

Eric

...? MagickalMemories whats the bit on page 90 ... that bit that says Scoring units?

Codex > Rulebook

No turboboost, Do score.

To be honest, I'd prefer if they removed both as outdated. I have a disturbing feeling in my gut that if GW were to take action on this issue, they'd more than likely just screw us over by keeping the Turbo Boost restriction, and removing our scoring AB and LS.

Tri beat me to it. Page 90, big paragraph called scoring units. I like the sentence that says "The concept of scoring units is central to the first two standard missions............" Anyways, point being, main rulebook does indeed call them scoring units. Sooooo, wanna try again as to why a Ravenwing Landspeeder, whose codex rules make it a scoring unit, cannot be a scoring unit but a Space Marine Elite unit (Sternguard) can become, let's see, what did the Marine codex call them, oh yeah, scoring units. Or is everybody arguing against Sternguard as well? If you allow one, then consistency demands that you allow the other. If you disallow one, then consistency demands that you disallow both.

Trekari wrote:To be honest, I'd prefer if they removed both as outdated. I have a disturbing feeling in my gut that if GW were to take action on this issue, they'd more than likely just screw us over by keeping the Turbo Boost restriction, and removing our scoring AB and LS.

They have already done so, and produced an erratta outlining which parts of the codex should be changed. They eliminated the line about combat squads below half are no longer scoring. But they left in the turboboost restriction and the Ravenwing speeder scoring.

Or maybe it's part of a greater conspiracy to keep the DA down...

don_mondo wrote:They have already done so, and produced an erratta outlining which parts of the codex should be changed. They eliminated the line about combat squads below half are no longer scoring. But they left in the turboboost restriction and the Ravenwing speeder scoring.

What I mean is that I don't think they've realized pg. 27 still needs updating, and if they were to realize this, they (GW) would more than likely just d**k us in the ear again by keeping the Turbo Boost restriction and removing our scoring AB and LS.

That's how GW likes to roll in regards to DA.

I don't see any way to play it other than RAW. These two points are so brutally clear that there's no need whatsoever for an FAQ.

sourclams wrote:These two points are so brutally clear that there's no need whatsoever for an FAQ.

Yup.

And yet, people *still* disagree that Codex > Rulebook... :S

Notice how two people have voted to keep one, but remove the other, yet don't have the testicular fortitude to post and explain why?

I suppose they could be voting to remove the Turbo Boost restriction while keeping the scoring AB and LS, but come on - at least post and contribute your thoughts.

trekari wrote:I suppose they could be voting to remove the Turbo Boost restriction while keeping the scoring AB and LS

Why should LS be scoring? Landspeeders are vehicles so not scoring.
Bikes and attackbikes are infantry,become troops (sammael) and therefore scoring.

Can SM bikes / LS use scout? no? so your scout-rule stays and you move once 12". or stand still and turboboost later.

1hadhq wrote:

trekari wrote:I suppose they could be voting to remove the Turbo Boost restriction while keeping the scoring AB and LS

Why should LS be scoring? Landspeeders are vehicles so not scoring.
Bikes and attackbikes are infantry,become troops (sammael) and therefore scoring.

Can SM bikes / LS use scout? no? so your scout-rule stays and you move once 12". or stand still and turboboost later.

? you've failed to read the right texts ... Landspeeder taken as troop are classified as Scoring in the codex (if they were just troop you'd be right)

Now can SM bikes or LS use scout? well technicaly yes if they get it listed they could ... they could also turbo boost thanks to the BGB FAQ ... only DA have it in there rules they can't (codex > BGB)
(Lots of edits should realy check before Posting)

Enforcing both as RAW is the only fair way to go.

Tri wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

trekari wrote:I suppose they could be voting to remove the Turbo Boost restriction while keeping the scoring AB and LS

Why should LS be scoring? Landspeeders are vehicles so not scoring.
Bikes and attackbikes are infantry,become troops (sammael) and therefore scoring.

Can SM bikes / LS use scout? no? so your scout-rule stays and you move once 12". or stand still and turboboost later.

? you've failed to read the right texts ... Landspeeder taken as troop are classified as Scoring in the codex (if they were just troop you'd be right)

Now can SM bikes or LS use scout? well technicaly yes if they get it listed they could ... they could also turbo boost thanks to the BGB FAQ ... only DA have it in there rules they can't (codex > BGB)
(Lots of edits should realy check before Posting)

1) page 27 refers to combat squad, so if the RAS don't combat squad it is a scoring unit as a whole.
2) DA get scout for bikes+attack bikes+RAS LS.
3) SM get scout only for scoutbikes.
4) if you go Codex>BRB your combat squadded RAS elements stay scoring.

So you can't scout AND turboboost. too bad DA can't move 24" before turn 1.
Is the scout-move mandatory? Maybe you have to forfeit the move and turboboost in turn 1?
Is there a difference between a 12" move before turn 1 and a 12" in turn 1 to a 24" move in turn 1?
Do you need the 3+ cover save soo much?

If i could choose, i would drop the LS as scoring and remove the restriction of the turboboost.

:S Can't see the need of Ravenwing to move 12"+24" on a standard sized table.

1hadhq wrote:
Why should LS be scoring? Landspeeders are vehicles so not scoring.

Why should Sternguard be scoring? Sternguard are Elite so not scoring.

The rules for scoring units are as follows;

1. Non-swarm

2. Non-vehicle

3. Troops choice

One is not more important than the other. Pedro Cantor shows us that, by using a specific rule, at least one of them can be ignored. RAS shows us that another one can be too.

Steelmage99 wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Why should LS be scoring? Landspeeders are vehicles so not scoring.

Why should Sternguard be scoring? Sternguard are Elite so not scoring.

The rules for scoring units are as follows;

1. Non-swarm

2. Non-vehicle

3. Troops choice

One is not more important than the other. Pedro Cantor shows us that, by using a specific rule, at least one of them can be ignored. RAS shows us that another one can be too.

If said so by errata = yes. By Faq = no.

Changes from 4th to 5th are to ignore ?
4th ed had mobile vehicles as scoring and RAS landspeeders are mobile vehicles. Codex DA is a 4th ed release.
5th ed has vehicles as not scoring. So the RAS landspeeder may loose it.
Is this too harsh to DA?
Remember DA get still 3 scoring units,where vanilla marines get 2 scoring units.DA must take Sammael then as vanilla would
need a "bike-captain" to do so,but I can't see a RAS getting scoring units without moving to Troops-slot.

1hadhq wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Why should LS be scoring? Landspeeders are vehicles so not scoring.

Why should Sternguard be scoring? Sternguard are Elite so not scoring.

The rules for scoring units are as follows;

1. Non-swarm

2. Non-vehicle

3. Troops choice

One is not more important than the other. Pedro Cantor shows us that, by using a specific rule, at least one of them can be ignored. RAS shows us that another one can be too.

If said so by errata = yes. By Faq = no.

Changes from 4th to 5th are to ignore ?
4th ed had mobile vehicles as scoring and RAS landspeeders are mobile vehicles. Codex DA is a 4th ed release.
5th ed has vehicles as not scoring. So the RAS landspeeder may loose it.
Is this too harsh to DA?
Remember DA get still 3 scoring units,where vanilla marines get 2 scoring units.DA must take Sammael then as vanilla would
need a "bike-captain" to do so,but I can't see a RAS getting scoring units without moving to Troops-slot.

I think you are missing my point.

This has nothing to do with Errata/FAQ.
This has nothing to do with 4./5. edition.


Please, consider the following questions;

1. Are Sternguard, by their very nature, scoring?

2. Can Sternguard be made scoring?

3. Are landspeeders, by their very nature, scoring?

4. Can Landspeeders be made scoring?

-------------------------

1. No, as they are an Elite choice they are not scoring.

2. Yes, by taking Pedro Cantor (makes Sternguard scoring, does not change their position in the FOC)

3. No, as they are Vehicles they are not scoring.

4. Yes, by taking them as part of a Ravenwing Assault Squadron (specifically state that they are scoring)


Do you see what I am getting at?

note bike squadrons are not scoring unless they are taken as troop ... but Attack Bikes and Land Speeders are "Scoring units of one"

Steelmage99 wrote:

I think you are missing my point.

This has nothing to do with Errata/FAQ.
This has nothing to do with 4./5. edition.


Please, consider the following questions;

1. Are Sternguard, by their very nature, scoring?

2. Can Sternguard be made scoring?

3. Are landspeeders, by their very nature, scoring?

4. Can Landspeeders be made scoring?

-------------------------

1. No, as they are an Elite choice they are not scoring.

2. Yes, by taking Pedro Cantor (makes Sternguard scoring, does not change their position in the FOC)

3. No, as they are Vehicles they are not scoring.

4. Yes, by taking them as part of a Ravenwing Assault Squadron (specifically state that they are scoring)


Do you see what I am getting at?

1) RAS should be scoring even when taken as Fast assault is your point?
or
2)RAS should be scoring when you take Sammael and they become Troops, but LS stay scoring for DA.

I wouldn't agree to 1) because i think we need at least some compatibility with 5th ed and shouldn't have non-troops AND vehicles
as scoring. 2 exceptions seem too much to me.
Personally i could live with 2). The concept of SC may be in DA partially but you don't get any special rules for the Masters of the
RW or DW and i think both only change 1 slot of your FOC so any changes in their rules need GW and not "fanwork".

@1hadhq: Suppose the IG get a new Special Character "Scorin' Tanquez" and he has the following specail rule: "All Leman Russes and Demolishers are Scoring", you're going to argue that Russes and Demolishers aren't scoring?

Because that's basically what you're doing. If a LS isn't RAS, it isn't Scoring. If the LS is RAS, then it is. Regardless of whether it's Troops, Fast, or Vehicle.